Interview by Ta Nea, UK Correspondent  Ioannis Andritsopoulos with the Director of the British Museum, Hartwig Fischer

Mr Fischer, do you think the Greeks are right to want the Parthenon Sculptures back?

I can certainly understand that the Greeks have a special and passionate relationship with this part of their cultural heritage. Yes, I understand that there is a desire to see all of the Parthenon Sculptures in Athens.

Would the British Museum consider returning the Parthenon Sculptures to Greece?

There is a long-lasting debate on this issue. The Parthenon Sculptures in Athens are being shown in a specific context and since 2009 in this wonderful new museum in a very fascinating display. And the Parthenon Sculptures that are in London tell different stories about a monument that has a very complex history. As a temple of Athena, and then a Christian church and then a mosque. It was blown up in the 1687, and abandoned and neglected. And then rediscovered. And the rediscovery is obviously part of European history. We are showing the Parthenon Sculptures which are at the British Museum in a context of world cultures, highlighting achievements from all over the world under one roof, and showing the interconnectedness of cultures. Since the beginning of the 19th century, the monument’s history is enriched by the fact that some (parts of it) are in Athens and some are in London where six million people see them every year. In each of these two locations they highlight different aspects of an incredibly rich, layered and complex history.

Greece says that it’s not just about returning the sculptures. It’s about reuniting the sculptures. Because they are a single work of art that should not be divided and fragmented. What’s your take on that?

People go to some places to encounter cultural heritage that was created for that site. They go to other places to see cultural heritage which has been moved and offers a different way to engage with that heritage. The British Museum is such a place, it offers opportunities to engage with the objects differently and ask different questions because they are placed in a new context. We should cherish that opportunity. You could of course, and with reason, regret that original contexts are dissolved.
When you move cultural heritage into a museum, you move it out of context. Yet that displacement is also a creative act. That is also true for the Acropolis Museum; the sculptures are out of their original context there. Nothing we admire in the Acropolis Museum was created for the Acropolis Museum.

It’s there though. The Museum faces the Acropolis. It’s not the same as being (the Sculptures) here in London.

Absolutely not. You’re right. They are close to the original context but they have still been taken away from it and been transformed through this act.

So the answer to the question if you would consider returning the Sculptures to Greece, is it a no? Is it a yes? Is it a maybe?

The British Museum was created in 1753 and opened in 1759 to allow people to not only encounter world cultures free of charge, but also to draw comparisons between cultures. Parliament who created this institution transferred the responsibility for this collection to the Trustees, stipulating that this collection has to be preserved for future generations. And that fiduciary responsibility the Trustees of the Museum take absolutely seriously. The Trustees feel the obligation to preserve the collection in its entirety, so that things that are part of this collection remain part of this collection. And to share them as much and wherever this is possible. The British Museum lends thousands of objects every year. And we also lend to the Acropolis Museum, we have excellent relations with our colleagues there.

But that is the reason why the Museum will not permanently return the Sculptures? What you just told me about the Trustees.

Yes.

However, the British government has the power to pave the way for the Sculptures’s return. The majority of the trustees (15 out of 25) are appointed by the government. The parliament could also legislate. So there is, in theory, a way for it to happen.

Well, if the British Parliament wants to legislate on this, then it is sovereign in doing so. It would have to pass primary legislation to change the legal basis that we are operating on today.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity to interview the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. He told me that if he became PM he would make sure the Parthenon Sculptures return to Greece. What’s your comment on that?

I think that this is Mr Corbyn’s personal view on the question, that you take note of. Obviously, that is not the stance and the view of the Trustees of the Museum.

And of the Director as well?

And of the Director.

Are there active talks between the Museum and Greek officials or authorities about a possible return of the sculptures?

There are no active talks.

According to all polls, the British people are in favour of the reunification. Does that mean anything to you?

I see the value of the objects that are part of the collection of the British Museum in being at the British Museum in the context that we just discussed.

There is a question over the scultures’s ownership. Would you accept that Greece is the legal owner of the Parthenon Sculptures?

No, I would not. The objects that are part of the collection of the British Museum are in the fiduciary ownership of the Trustees of the Museum.

Would you consider an open-ended loan to Greece?

There are two aspects to this: firstly, there are no indefinite loans. Every thing we lend, even on a long-term basis, will, at some point, return to the British Museum. And then it can go out again. The other aspect is that when we lend, we lend to those places where the ownership is acknowledged.

There were several media reports last month regarding a leak in the Duveen Gallery where the Marbles are housed. As you can imagine there was a negative reaction. What’s your explanation about what happened?

We had a tiny leak in one area of the roof in the Parthenon Sculptures’ galleries. A small quantity of rain entered the gallery, but did not touch any of the Sculptures and this was fixed right away.

But you could see plastic containers collecting water next to the Sculptures. Did you find this embarrassing to the Museum?

Buildings, especially buildings that are of a certain age, have to be taken care of. I don’t want the slightest little leak in any of the roofs of the Museum. We’re all aware of our responsibilities. And that we all have to do the utmost to live up to that responsibility. And that is what we do.

Could you reassure the Museum’s visitors that in the future when it rains again they’re not going to see the same phenomenon?

We will be renovating the building over the next few years. The immediate problem has been solved.

Have you visited the Parthenon and the Acropolis Museum?

Of course I have.

Did you like it?

You cannot ask me if I like the Parthenon! 

Why not? Some people might not like it. They have the right not to!

I think it’s one of the miracles of world culture. When you stand in front of it you are filled by awe and admiration. That also goes for the Museum, but in a different way. The Museum is a major achievement. It’s a beautiful museum. It’s very inspiring.

Don’t you think that something is missing there?

Oh, I think that everywhere in the world something is missing. That is our human condition.

What are the chances the Parthenon Sculptures returning to Greece?

I think I’ve answered that question.

You are the first non-British director of the British Museum since 1866. How does that feel, especially in times of Brexit?

I feel, not as a German, but as the person I am, extremely honoured to be the Director of this institution. And to be responsible for the future of this institution, along with all my colleagues and the Trustees and the patrons. I do not assume this role as a German or the son of somebody who was born French or somebody who is married to somebody who was Italian and is now French and in between was Peruvian. I assume this as a European, who is a citizen of the world and who cherishes this.

Do you think Brexit would affect the British Museum’s operation?

Yes. I think that, depending on what kind of Brexit will happen in the end, if it happens, it will have a very strong impact.

Do you fear a no-deal scenario?

A no-deal Brexit would have a more profound impact.

Why did you want to become Director of the British Museum?

It was not my plan from birth, nor when I started my career. But being asked to think about it, I thought that this is the most wonderful place in the world.

Have you thought about what you’d like to do after leaving the British Museum – whenever that happens?

I’ve never thought about those things. I concentrate on the work.

An option would be for you to be the Director of the Acropolis Museum. If you take the Marbles with you!

You are a very creative journalist!

For more on Hartwig Fischer's plans for the Beitish Museum, do read the article by Martin Baily in the Art Newspaper, 01 September 2017, follow the link here.

 Yannis Andritsopoulos, London Correspondent for Ta Nea, Greece's daily newspaper visited the Tate Reading Rooms to see Kenneth Clark's original letter.

Kenneth Clark, a British art historian and Trustee of the British Museum, was in favour of the return of the Parthenon Marbles to Greece in the 1940s, it can be revealed.

Ta Nea, Greece’s daily newspaper, has seen and photographed a letter written by Clark in which he states explicitly that the so-called 'Elgin Marbles' should be sent back to Athens, with the aim of reuniting them with the rest of the Parthenon sculptures in one place.

"I am, quite irrationally, in favour of returning the Elgin marbles to Greece, not to be put back on the Parthenon, but to be installed in a beautiful building on the far side of the Acropolis, which I think the British Government should pay for. I would do this purely on sentimental grounds, as an expression of our indebtedness to Greece," the letter reads.

Clark wrote this letter on 3rd September, 1943. He sent it to Thomas Bodkin, then director of the Barber Institute of Fine Arts and Barber Professor of Fine Art at the University of Birmingham. At the time, Clark was Director of the National Gallery. His letter is currently kept in Tate Britain.

This is the only time that a British Museum Trustee has gone on record as being openly in favour of the Parthenon Sculptures’ reunification, a view standing in stark contrast to the position of the British Museum that the Elgin marbles should stay in London.

Greek President Prokopis Pavlopoulos

Greek President Prokopis Pavlopoulos told Ta Nea: “The request for the return of the Parthenon Sculptures had found, since 1943, an "unexpected" ally in Lord Kenneth Clark, who is included among the most important 20th-century art historians and who, in this capacity, participated in the administration of the most relevant British Institutions, such as the British Museum, the National Gallery, the National Theatre, the Royal Opera House.”

“This example clearly evinces the gentility and nobility of Kenneth Clark’s character as well as the strength and conviction of his ‘cultural morality’. These elements, in conjunction with the expression of his respect for the World Cultural Heritage and the roots of our Civilisation, make him a great representative of Britain’s tradition. Clark’s case also evinces how "miserable" and completely unworthy of Britain's tradition as outlined above is the attitude of the British Museum's officials today, who thus end up appearing inferior to the circumstances and the necessities pertaining to the defence of World Cultural Heritage and our common Civilisation and, furthermore, unrepentant accomplices of Elgin's cultural crime,” Pavlopoulos added.

Professor Anthony Snodgrass

“Kenneth Clark’s (slightly unexpected) support, for a position now widely held in the U.K., is one pleasant revelation. More important, however, is his perceptive emphasis on the need for separate solutions to individual cases; and, yet more striking, the uncanny accuracy of his prediction, for the Marbles “to be installed in a beautiful building on the far [that is, South] side of the Acropolis”,” said Professor Anthony Snodgrass, Emeritus Professor in Classical Archaeology at the University of Cambridge, Honorary President of the British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles.

“More than sixty-five years later, the greater part of this prophecy was to be precisely fulfilled; it only remains for the natural sequel, the 'reintegration' of the Marbles, to be enacted too," he added.

Professor Judith Herrin

“How splendid that Kenneth Clark's 1943 vision of the reunited Parthenon marbles has been perfectly realised in the New Acropolis Museum,” said Professor Judith Herrin, Constantine Leventis Senior Research Fellow Emeritus at King's College London, and one of the longest serving members of the British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles.

“On 20th June the superlative Acropolis Museumwill celebrate its 10th anniversary, having welcomed over 14 million visitors from all over the world and one can but imagine how elated Kenneth Clark would have been. Not only to see the top floor of the museum, the Parthenon Gallery but also the floors below and the opening of the area that has been painstakingly excavated to reveal 4,000 metres of homes, workshops, baths – an entire Athenian neighbourhood that existed from classical to byzantine years. What a pity that he is not alive to physically see all this and yet he too would have continued to have added his voice to the reunification of the Parthenon marbles. Britain has not paid for this museum and yet what is still missing are the many pieces that Lord Elgin so crudely removed from a building, currently displayed in the British Museum, the wrong way around, miles away from their other halves. Here’s to the day when they can be reunited in Athens and with views to the Parthenon, which still stands,” she added.

The Parthenon Sculptures have been displayed in the British Museum since 1817. They were removed from the Acropolis in Athens in the early 19th century by British diplomat Lord Elgin. Greece has challenged claims by the British Museum that Lord Elgin had obtained permission to transfer the Marbles from Athens to London and has demanded Britain open negotiations over their return.

Kenneth Clark (13 July 1903 – 21 May 1983) was a British art historian, museum director, and broadcaster. He was the National Gallery’s youngest ever Director. He achieved international fame as the writer, producer and presenter of the BBC Television series Civilisation.

Published in Ta Nea, Greece’s daily newspaper (www.tanea.gr)  . To read the origial article , follow the link here. 

Publication date: 14 June 2019

“We disagree with UNESCO's decision; the Parthenon Sculptures were acquired legally“, UK government says in a Ta Nea aricle written by Yannis Andritsopoulos, 07 October 2021.

The British government has said that it will not abide by a recent UNESCO decision on the Parthenon Marbles also insisted that “the Parthenon Sculptures were acquired legally” and rejected UNESCO’s call to reconsider its position and to negotiate with Greece on the return of the 2,500-year-old cultural treasures.

Speaking to Greek newspaper Ta Nea, a government spokesperson said that the UK government “disagrees” with the decision, adding that it intends to challenge it before UNESCO.

The response came after the UNESCO’s Intergovernmental Committee for Promoting the Return of Cultural Property (ICPRCP) voted unanimously for the first time at its 22nd session to include the return of the Parthenon Marbles in its decision document, marking a major step forward since Greece first introduced the request to the meeting’s agenda in 1984.

ICPRCP’s decision says that Greece’s request for the return of the Parthenon Sculptures is "legitimate and rightful" and calls on Britain "to reconsider its stand and proceed to a bona fide dialogue with Greece on the matter".

Most importantly, the Committee acknowledges for the first time that "the case has an intergovernmental character and, therefore, the obligation to return the Parthenon Sculptures lies squarely on the UK Government."

This is in stark contrast to the UK government’s assertion that it is for the British Museum, not the government, to discuss the issue and make decisions related to it.

“We disagree with the Committee’s decision adopted in the closing minutes of the session and are raising issues relating to fact and procedure with UNESCO,” a UK government spokesperson told Ta Nea.

“Our position is clear—the Parthenon Sculptures were acquired legally in accordance with the law at the time. The British Museum operates independently of the government and free from political interference. All decisions relating to collections are taken by the Museum’s trustees,” the spokesperson added.

A British Museum spokesperson told Ta Nea that “the Trustees of the British Museum have a legal and moral responsibility to preserve and maintain all the collections in their care,” adding that “the Parthenon Sculptures are an integral part of (the Museum’s collection) story and a vital element in this interconnected world collection”.

Greece insists that it is the rightful owner of the Parthenon Marbles. The Greek government says that the sculptures were illegally removed from the Parthenon during the Ottoman occupation of Greece in the early 1800s.

In his first interview with a European newspaper since becoming the UK’s prime minister, Boris Johnson dashed Greece’s hopes of getting the Marbles back, telling Greek daily Ta Nea that they were “legally acquired by Lord Elgin under the appropriate laws of the time and have been legally owned by the British Museum’s Trustees since their acquisition.”

The British Museums’ comment to Ta Nea in full:

“The British Museum has a long history of collaboration with UNESCO and admires and supports its work. The Trustees of the British Museum have a legal and moral responsibility to preserve and maintain all the collections in their care and to make them accessible to world audiences. The Trustees want to strengthen existing good relations with colleagues and institutions in Greece, and to explore collaborative ventures directly between institutions, not on a government-to-government basis. This is why we believe that working in partnership across the world represents the best way forward. Museums holding Greek works, whether in Greece, the UK or elsewhere in the world, are naturally united to show the importance of the legacy of ancient Greece. The British Museum is committed to playing its full part in sharing the value of that legacy.

“The Museum takes its commitment to be a world museum seriously. The collection is a unique resource to explore the richness, diversity and complexity of all human history, our shared humanity. The strength of the collection is its breadth and depth which allows millions of visitors an understanding of the cultures of the world and how they interconnect – whether through trade, migration, conquest, conflict, or peaceful exchange.

“The Parthenon Sculptures are an integral part of that story and a vital element in this interconnected world collection, particularly in the way in which they convey the influences between Egyptian, Persian, Greek and Roman cultures. We share this collection with the widest possible public, lending objects all over the world and making images and information on over four million objects from the collection available online.

“The approach of the Acropolis Museum and the British Museum are complementary: the Acropolis Museum provides an in-depth view of the ancient history of its city, the British Museum offers a sense of the wider cultural context and sustained interaction with the neighbouring civilisations of Egypt and the Near East which contributed to the unique achievements of ancient Greece”.

Britain had previously rejected Greece’s request to hold talks on returning the Marbles after Athens proposed a meeting between experts from the two countries.

Unanimous adoption five minutes before the end of the meeting

Yannis Andritsopulos of Ta Neawrites that the decision of the 22nd Session of the Intergovernmental Committee of UNESCO, the ICPRCP was taken with the efforts of  the behind-the-scenes diplomatic steps taken by Greece. The Zambia delegation introduced COM 17 to the plenary at the end of the Summit and the decision was adopted unanimously. Despite subsequent protests from the British side, due process had been followed throughout the proceedings of this session, a Greek government source told the "Ta Nea". The President of this Session of the ICPRCP read out the full text of the decision and asked its members four times if there are any objections. There was none.

To listen to the 22nd Session of the ICPRCP, follow the link here.

Greece was represented at the 22nd Session of the ICPRCP by the Secretary General of the Ministry of Culture Georgios Didaskalou, the new General Director of the Acropolis Museum Nikolaos Stampolidis, the Director of the department for the protection of cultural property of the Ministry of Culture Vasiliki Papageorgiou and the legal advisor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Artemis Papathanassiou. Greece exerted pressure for the decision on the issue to be finalised. "Although Britain does not accept dialogue, Greece continues to ask for this and on this occassion we asked the committee to do something more," added the Ministry of Foreign Affairs reprsentative, Ms Papathanassiou with the ICPRCP President accepting her request for the drafting of a decision to be adopted by the Comittee. 

Greece was represented at at the 22nd Session of the ICPRCP by the Secretary General of the Ministry of Culture Georgios Didaskalou, the new General Director of the Acropolis Museum Nikolaos Stampolidis, the Director of the department for the protection of cultural property of the Ministry of Culture Vasiliki Papageorgiou and the legal advisor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Artemis Papathanassiou.  

 "We congratulate Greece on this excellent result and hope that Britain will finally review its stance and engage in dialogue. At some point, the day will come when we will see the Sculptures reunited in the Acropolis Museum," commented Dr Christiane Titgat, president of the International Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures (IARPS).

Dr Christiane Tytgat, President of the International Association for the Reunification of the Parthenon Sculptures (IARPS)

BCRPM observations, 07 October 2021.

Wednesday 06 October 2021, saw the final day of the Conservative Party Conference at Manchester Central Convention Complex.Prime Minister Johnson's speech included his take on how to conserve British heritage and culture:

"It has become clear to me that this isn’t just a joke – they really do want to rewrite our national story, starting with Hereward the Woke. We really are at risk of a kind of know-nothing cancel culture, know-nothing iconoclasm. We Conservatives will defend our history and cultural inheritance not because we are proud of everything, but because trying to edit it now is as dishonest as a celebrity trying furtively to change his entry in Wikipedia, and it’s a betrayal of our children’s education."

A reminder that goblal Britain can only claim to be global by being omnipotent? History doesn't have to be rewitten but it has to told as a whole story. And we come back to BCRPM's 20 June protest outside the British Museum, with a poster asking the BM to come clean. Janet Suzman wrote:  

' NOT explaining the full story of these Marbles, and is not worthy of such an august institution. Each case should be considered on its merits since each case is different. The Marbles case is unique.

The BM's Director, Hartwig Fischer, has developed a defensive trope about separation being a 'creative act'. Well, he would, wouldn’t he? The Marbles are one of the BM's star attractions.

The Rodin show a few years ago re-inforced the marbles' supremacy in execution and their diminished meaning in isolation. Imagine one of Rodin’s great figures from the group called The Burghers of Calais standing separated from its fellows in a far country? That would hardly be a ‘creative act’.

The BM is a great encyclopaedic institution while being an Aladdin's Cave of conquest. Imperial Britain took objects from other countries because it could.

But there's a mood abroad which abhors colonialist attitudes and entitlement that it must wake up to.'

For more on the 20 June 2021 protest follow, the link here.